My original message (which was its own thread/topic):
Since there's no way to actually contact the powers that be at PayPal (phone number goes to the Far East, snail mail goes to who knows where), I thought it only appropriate that I post an official good-bye to PayPal. I just found out about the 21-day hold on money received (both for eBay sales and thru personal ecommerce sites). I'm lucky I stumbled across the information on another forum as I never received any sort of communication from PayPal stating they were going to start doing this. I've been using eBay for 12 years (perfect feedback, but only 500 transactions so I'm no longer considered a "valued" customer) and PayPal for ten including on my personal website, but this goes too far. I just signed up for Google Checkout and will be replacing PayPal on my website with Google as soon as they've verified my bank account.
This past week I purchased merchandise from five different online vendors -- using my credit card -- and I can guarantee you that not one of them are still waiting to receive my money!
Oh, and one last thing I'm going to do is file a complaint about this with the FTC Bureau of Consumer Protection. Its bad enough you're doing it, but to not clearly disclose you're doing it seems fishy to me.
Good luck with that new business model.
I received the following response from some jerk named profdata:
I guess you didn't read the Paypal user agreement, nor saw the warning when listing on eBay
...to which I responded as follows:
When my credit card raised my APR I received a notice in the mail informing me of this. Implementing a 21-day hold on someone's earnings from sales deserved the same treatment. But, okay, I just went to the agreement page and found the offending paragraph:
Risk-Based Holds. PayPal, in its sole discretion, may place a hold on any or all of the payments you receive when PayPal believes there may be a high level of risk associated with you, your Account, or any or all of your transactions. PayPal’s determination may be based on a number of different factors and PayPal may rely on information it receives from its third party partners such as eBay. If PayPal places a hold on a payment, the funds will appear in your "Pending Balance" and the payment status will show as "Completed - Funds not yet available". If PayPal places a hold on any or all of the payments you receive PayPal will provide you with notice of our actions. PayPal will release the hold on any payment after 21 Days from the date the payment was received into your Account unless you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal or PayPal has taken another action permitted under this Section 10. PayPal, in its sole discretion, may release the hold earlier under certain circumstances, for example PayPal may release the hold earlier if you have uploaded tracking information. If you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal, PayPal may continue holding the payment in your Account until the matter is resolved pursuant to this Agreement.
This paragraph is so messed up I don't know where to begin. What exactly is "in its sole discretion"? What warrants them to associate "a high level of risk" with you? What are the "different factors" they are basing their determination on???
As for eBay, I just went to list an item...here is a pdf of the whole thing before hitting "List Item" which of course I did not do...please point out to this stupid ignorant person where exactly does it state anything about a 21-day hold on PayPal payments...???? (If it shows up only AFTER one hits "List Item," then that certainly deserves a complaint with the FTC.)
I could continue, but I just took a quick peek at your other posts here...it appears that you are the official PayPal spokesman in charge of customer relations...and I think you deserve to be fired.
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Receiving-money/PayPal-Holding-Fund-GROSSLY-Unfair/m-p/260724#M9562
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/eBay-and-PayPal/Holding-funds-until-feedback-left-FEEDBACK-LEFT-STILL-ON-HOLD/m-p/255640#M10546
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Sending-money/Funds-Held-Hostage-by-PayPal/m-p/228012#M5406
Almost immediately I received the following finger-wagging email from PayPal:
Dear Sparklements,
We are sorry to let you know that your recent post, "Re: Good-Bye,
PayPal (and eBay too!)" has been edited because it violates the PayPal
Community Help Forum policy against including disruptive or hostile
comments in a post.
We would also like to take this opportunity to let you know that PayPal
employees are marked by the PayPal symbol next to their name. All
employees who post on the forums are required to be noted in this way.
As such, ProfData is not a PayPal employee - he is customer of PayPal,
such as yourself, who has come to the forums to share their experiences
and expertise with other customers.
Our policies can be reviewed here: https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?&cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/he
lpforum_full&locale.x=en_US
You can also review our forum decorum thread here: https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Watercooler/Forum-Decorum/m-p/37849#
U37849
Please note that this is your [insert #] warning this [week/month].
Repeated policy violations can result in a suspension or removal from
the community, so please be careful!
Thanks for your help in keeping the PayPal Community Help Forum a
friendly, productive environment for all members.
Sincerely,
PayPal Community Help Team
PayPal, an eBay Company
They removed the last part where I say profdata should be fired (and the accompanying URLs), and then completely deleted the thread and moved my message into a generic 310-page thead. So I hit the "reply" button and typed this:
FUCK YOU! ProfData's response was rude and condescending and deserved my full comments.
I am not going to be lectured by a bunch of crooks. Go ahead and censor me from your stupid "community"...I've got the full original post saved to my hard drive and I'm going to post this entire story on my blog which I will link to on my facebook page and every single forum I am a member of, from Tolkien Fans to Radio Paradise.
You people should be ashamed.
And thus concludes my ten-year relationship with PayPal.
Those hidden posters with tens of thousands of swarmy posts, profdata, sandypurins, etal are not PayPal employees.
ReplyDeleteLikely they're Liveworld.com employees.
http://78886.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=78886&p=3&topicID=37528573&page=1
eBay pays Liveworld to moderate forums.
PayPal is owned by eBay.
I found your post Googling the subject matter regarding Paypal not releasing funds to sellers.
ReplyDeleteI use eBay mostly to buy things, but have sold a dozen things since the late 90s when I started using eBay. The last time I sold something on eBay was 6 years. I had a TAG Heuer watch I just listed on eBay a few weeks ago, which I was forced to part with my watch because of financial circumstances. When the auction ended, I was paid within an hour by the buyer. I remember when I used to sell things, I would get my money right away. I was shocked to find out that I would have to wait days to get my money, and that to get my money faster, it's preferable to use eBay's shipping service. It said I would get my money 3 days after delivery confirmation. I shipped the watch out the next day with insurance and requesting a signed delivery confirmation. I got an email a few days ago from the buyer who received the watch and thanking me for shipping it so fast. However, on USPS's end (who must have some deal with eBay so that you use their shipping service), it hasn't been updated as being delivered, so now I'm sitting here waiting for my money when I need it for rent in a few days. Ebay's new system is very flawed, especially since they're also relying on USPS.
I agree that there was no notice when listing the item about how one would have to wait for their money from Paypal. Had I known this, I would've sold my watch locally here in Los Angeles which would've been very easy. To make it even more maddening, these eBay crooks force you to use Paypal to check out, then use their shipping system if you want your money. Not only do you pay 9% for the eBay listing fee + selling fee, but Paypal also takes a cut for using their service. So any small profit a person hopes to make is essentially taken by eBay!
I really feel for the sellers who have to rely on eBay. Ebay has really gone downhill the last several years, and I wouldn't blame sellers for jumping ship, especially when they can sell using their own website. Thank goodness that Google checkout exists as an alternative payment method!
Thank you for sharing your story. You're lucky the buyer was happy with the watch, else they'd complain to PP and they'd get their money back AND keep the watch. I recommend you call your state attorney general about this -- and threaten to go to the media if they don't start doing their job (protecting consumers from prick companies).
ReplyDeleteHello. I also found your article searching for this topic. I am an international seller from Mexico. I have used e-bay since 1999 and paypal since 2k. This fund withholding is really screwing up my business. I have 100% feedback and despite being a longtime user I still have to wait 21 days for my funds. Ebay takes 9% of sales and Payapl 4% of payment and still have the need to screw sellers a little more. I have no use for the USPS products, I ship within two days of "receiving" payment and MUST use tracking number. I always send the TN to the buyer ASAP but that doesn´t speed anything up. Very frustrating all of this. And speaking of scams, well, buyers who do receive item and claim lost packages will get a nice refund now. I have had a couple of those last year. So now I am looking to move my auctions to ebid.net and use Google Checkout instead. If anyone at ebay-paypal is reading this please take a note and get a working customer line. I tried to call several times to get funds from buyers who noticed me that they received their auctions perfectly and NOTHING, Nobody is addressing this unfair practice. (What are they doing with the funds on a 21 day hold? Yes, getting a profit from fixed investment term. That´s what.)
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting, Etaf. I wouldn't know where to direct you to complain in Mexico, we have entities who are supposed to be protecting us consumers but they don't. I'd recommend leaving eBay completely and permanently, as I have (and remember, this is what they want).
ReplyDeleteI too have been a hit with this BS of "funds not yet available" I think I may have to stop selling things on ebay. I have 100% positive feedbacks, mostly as a buyer. I have sold several item that range from under $10 to over $500. It's BS that they don't count the feedback as a buyer because doesn't it say that you're a good account holder by paying on time? What do I do about buyers that refuse to leave a positive feedback even when they're happy with their purchase. They're bunch of crooks with taking cuts from both ebay and paypal. I may have to remove my other two listings because I don't want to deal with this BS. Even when I sold my first item on ebay, I didn't have to deal with this, and this is the thanks I get. F U Ebay!
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting, CL. I'd recommend ending those eBay listings, there is life after eBay. Before I requested they close my account, I contacted all my regular sellers asking if they were willing to sell to me off eBay, they all said "no problem" and most gave me links to their own sites (they recognize a good customer, unlike evilBay).
ReplyDeleteI found this post after being angered,and looking for some comfort not being alone. I recently fell victim to the ebay/paypal funds on hold. I now have almost $300 being held and an item shipped to CA; even with a delivery confirmation number given to both Ebay and Paypal. I called Paypal when learning of my funds being held, and was given the reason; that I have not sold 25 items in the past year. This is just a way to put interest in Paypals pocket. Now the new scam I just learned about is charge backs which can strip sellers of product and money. I hope all goes well with this final ebay transaction, and I can get the hell out with my shirt! I would gladly join forces in a class action against Paypal and/ or Ebay. Ebay, and Paypal are a monopoly. The actions by both companies to hold funds should be illegal!
ReplyDeleteAnother satisfied customer! Contact your state attorney general, that usually gets your money released pronto, then when you've received all your money WALK AWAY from BOTH evilBay and PP (they're the same since the former owns the latter). Then spread the word so everyone knows what they risk when using PP. I turned it into a fun project by posting their dirt here in my blog (the chief Liveworld shill Sandy Purins saw it and flipped out, hee hee hee). That's the only way to "deal" with them, as our government won't touch them with the current climate (interfering in capitalism = communism, class warfare, yadda yadda yadda).
DeleteWish I'd noticed this before I'd sold $180 worth of stuff on eBay. I have 100% feedback, I've sold with eBay since '98, but like "mrgq4126" above, I haven't sold a lot recently. Here's the best part: the funds are still being held, and right now it's showing my "estimated funds availablility" date as January 13th, 2012. I want to see if it still says this tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteIf the money is not released tomorrow, I'll do as you suggest and file a complaint with the State AG.
You could also try whoever regulates the banks in your state, list is here: http://www.mtraweb.org/docs/2011_contact_list-for-general-questions-money-transmission.pdf
DeleteBut as you can see from a later entry here, mine doesn't give a ratzass. I mailed a printout of that entry to him with a nice nasty letter asking how much he was bribed to sign that document...I received a response but couldn't get the stomach to read it, I tossed it into a shoebox...maybe in ten years when I'm not so angry I'll read it.
I found your blog after doing a search about the same Paypal bullshit and had to refund an order.
ReplyDeleteI'm through with them. Good riddance to these assholes.
Amen!
DeleteOh no!! I just sold my first item on ebay! It is $220 cell phone I still have it and have not shipped it until I receive payment since it is "Pending and ok to ship via paypal" but I am a little concerned about sending it and not having my money what do you guys recommend that I do?! I listed the tracking number and set it up to ship out tomorrow (March 1st 2012) but should I hold of until the money is in my account? Thank you for your help!
ReplyDeleteHey there, I used the "reply to" in your gmail message but in case you don't receive it I'll paste my response below...
DeleteUnfortunately, you're stuck as the transaction is technically "complete" and if you don't keep your end of it the buyer has the power to give you bad feedback, zero stars, etc. Many sellers have posted the same conundrum in the evilBay/PP forum (http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Paypal/97) ... so you're going to have to just send the item and hope for the best. If after the buyer has received it and left your fb and PP doesn't release your money then call your state attorney general, that usually gets the money released pronto. In the future I recommend ditching evilBay (there are alternatives, I use etsy now) and never use PP unless you're willing to give your item away for free. Good luck!
Hello there Sparklements.
ReplyDeleteI feel the exact same way that you do with this whole deal. I've had an eBay account for a year now, and I am a "silver-star" eBay member (10 positive seller feedbacks or more). I never recieved an email from PayPal nor eBay about any policy change since I started my accounts. Just last week, March 17th, I listed 2 cell phones. Instantly, People purcahsed them and I made $232. Minus PayPal fees and eBay listing fees, I think I made good money, until I found out I have to wait 21 days for my money. One of the cell phones I sold was an iPhone 3G, I'm trying to save for a 3Gs, so now I don't have a cell phone, and I need it for school, work, family, etc. Who knows how many people are trying to contact me now? I have positive feedback, I shipped (and they were delivered) the items, provided tracking, and my funds are still not estimated until the beginning of next month...... I hate this so much. I am going to stick with Google and Craigslist now. Thank goodness I have a debit card.
Well I had a twelve year history with them, 475 positives (no negs), but that didn't mean squat. They don't want us, so I say, let's do what they are asking us to do, and that's LEAVE. Its very sad, really. Good luck!
Delete